1890 QDO-001–detailed pictures

>>1890 QDO-001–detailed pictures
1890 QDO-001–detailed pictures 2015-02-21T23:18:39+00:00

Home Forums Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cents Forum 1890 QDO-001–detailed pictures

Viewing 8 posts - 1 through 8 (of 14 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • DVCollectorDVCollector
    Moderator
    Post count: 103

    I just acquired an 1890 QDO-001 (S1)–a class VI quadrupled die that I’ve been after for a long time. This example is mid-grade, but what’s more important–it’s an earlier die state that retains a lot of interesting detail in the legends.
    The whole coin is an even brown with fairly even wear:

    1890 QDO-001 obverse and reverse

    Here’s a closer look at the areas which are often the subject to intense die deterioration. First, detail from a Heritage coin that looks to be a much later die state:

    This deterioration is largely absent on earlier die states like my coin–detail of rim:

    Clearly, there is very little deterioration under the date, which suggests my coin is EDS. 🙂

    After comparing several coins of later die states, I noticed that the doubling on the legends is affected by die wear. Since legends are subject to a lot of metal flow, the details of the QDO are also worn, having the effect of enlarging the chunky serifs. No doubt, a lot of the subtle details are lost on later die states. Should later die states be priced less? I think so.

    Now for the best part: the markers of this quadrupled die. It took some very careful lighting to capture the doubling on the legends. I don’t think arrows are needed for this article.

    One last detail: the date has something in the “0”. There is discussion this might be a 0/0, and I think that’s a strong possibility. Using an overlay of the 0 punched south, it appears to be a plausible explanation for those nubs on the inside of the digit.


    • This topic was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by DVCollector DVCollector.
    RussRuss
    Keymaster
    Post count: 124

    Hey Kurt thanks for sharing. Awesome photos of an honest, original coin! This is a very exciting variety, one of the top of the entire series. It is the only QDO known, and does show at least four steps very distinctly on high grade coins. Serious collectors might aim for both early and late die states, as the late die state is quite interesting. It serves as an excellent example to new collectors on how the dies can deteriorate, and what they look like.

    I remember the first time I found the QDO, and have found a couple since then. They are very easy to spot once you know what to look for, but they are rare. Anyone desiring the QDO should be able to pick one eventually. The heavy degree of die deterioration suggests there are plenty of them out there to collect.


    Collecting Flying Eagle and Indian Head pennies never made more cents!

    DVCollectorDVCollector
    Moderator
    Post count: 103

    It is the only QDO known, and does show at least four steps very distinctly on high grade coins.

    Agreed–at least 4. If you want to get really detailed about it, each of the ridges seen below represent a hubbing. It’s quite possible that in some places on the legends, these have merged together into larger steps…


    • This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by DVCollector DVCollector.
    DVCollectorDVCollector
    Moderator
    Post count: 103

    The heavy degree of die deterioration suggests there are plenty of them out there to collect.

    You could be right–although it’s sorta tough to find for such a common date (and an est. ~250K pieces/die) I’ve been looking for years. I suspect the die was improperly hardened, which might also explain the process of how the QDO came to be. Evidence of this might be seen in the heavy deterioration in certain parts of the die, and not others. So it could also be due to uneven hardening after removing that 0/0 RPD.

    Now for a pretty technical discussion to explain this QDO…
    There are several theories on class VI doubling in various sources, but the explanations strike me as rather vague. For doubling that exhibits radial stepping from the center of the die, it might be easily explained by the process of thermal expansion. All materials expand when heated, and this coefficient has been carefully measured, as it’s so critical for engineering things that don’t fail under thermal stress. And given that dies are annealed in an oven between hubbings, it is very plausible that a heat differential may be the culprit here. So let’s do a few calculations. Bear with all these details—it does have a point, eventually. 😉

    As I’m familiar with measuring objects in microscopy, I did a few calculations to arrive at the distance of an individual (but larger) step pictured above. The result is a figure of roughly 25 microns or 25/1000 a millimeter.
    For the sake of easy calculation, let’s say the die radius is 10mm or (10,000 microns) and calculate expansion from the center outwards.

    The total thermal expansion coefficient would be 25/10000 or 0.0025.
    The expansion coefficient for steel, probably very similar in 1890, is 7.2×10^-6 (0.0000072).
    So the temperature change would be = 0.0025/0.0000072 or 347°F. Note: this is for a large step.

    If we consider the strong possibility that more hubbings were made, and a couple steps may have merged into one, the temperature differential might be only ~175°F. Let’s say there was a problem with the annealing oven, or the die blank was hubbed at different temperatures. Given the calculations above, it may be plausible that distortion is introduced into the hubbing—or the die was improperly hardened, resulting in the deterioration seen, and possibly shorter die life.


    • This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by DVCollector DVCollector.
    DVCollectorDVCollector
    Moderator
    Post count: 103

    OK–I re-shot the legends with a different setup. I managed to get more detail and clarity of doubling on some letters.
    I noticed that some of these shots have more detail than the shots in the QDO-001 listing. You’re welcome to include them–the img urls are at full size.


    • This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by DVCollector DVCollector.
    RussRuss
    Keymaster
    Post count: 124

    Nice job, these more recent pics show more of the steps. Have you read the article on annealing and orange peel in the LL? Vol 24.1 Issue 90 April 2014 starting page 23.

    I’ve not found definitive proof that planchets were annealed at the mint – that would have been a massive operation. What is known is that the mint contracted the making of planchets to an outside contractor. This info is in Kevin’s materials. My impression was that the planchets arrived at the mint ready for striking. I can’t imagine the mint ordering millions of planchets, then sending them through the oven. Surely this would have been done by the company who made the planchets, where they had the room and equipment. But I could be wrong, and there is the possibility that they could have annealed some of the planchets.

    A difference of 175 degrees would have been a huge difference in the annealing furnace, and would have altered the steel to a degree noticeable by the human eye. See the photos in the article I mentioned. The conclusion is that the planchets were overheated, but not the dies.


    Collecting Flying Eagle and Indian Head pennies never made more cents!

    DVCollectorDVCollector
    Moderator
    Post count: 103

    A difference of 175 degrees would have been a huge difference in the annealing furnace, and would have altered the steel to a degree noticeable by the human eye.

    Yeah–I think the difference would be noticeable to trained eyes–steel temperature/color charts clearly indicate a difference of 100°F can be be seen. In any case, what happened to this die is outside the norm–I wish I could go back in time and see how it was done! 😀 As a look back, I found this excerpt from a 1924 book on annealing; I would guess similar practices were in place in 1890:

    “high-carbon [tool] steel should be annealed at between 1400 degrees and 1500 degrees F. This temperature should be maintained just long enough to heat the entire piece evenly throughout. It is essential, when annealing, to exclude the air as completely as possible while the steel is hot, to prevent the outside of the steel from becoming oxidized. After annealing, it should be allowed to cool at a rate slow enough to prevent any hardening.”

    I imagine this also applies to annealing dies at this time–heating up to ~ 1500°F, then a slow cooling–and done after every hubbing. It sounds time-consuming, doesn’t it? I have no idea how cool the dies were when they were hubbed, so my thermal expansion theory is purely speculative. Maybe the doubling is due to pressure changes while hubbing? Whatever the cause, the stepping is interesting enough to photograph in detail. 😀


    • This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by DVCollector DVCollector.
    DVCollectorDVCollector
    Moderator
    Post count: 103

    Have you read the article on annealing and orange peel in the LL? Vol 24.1 Issue 90 April 2014 starting page 23.

    So I just re-read that article–an interesting read, one of the better LL has published. I think I get the gist of temperature on grain size as an explanation for “orange peel”. I actually wondered about this when I photographed the surfaces of your 1864 no-L, especially on the portrait–it shows up well in my pics. 😀

    I’ve not found definitive proof that planchets were annealed at the mint – that would have been a massive operation. What is known is that the mint contracted the making of planchets to an outside contractor.

    Yes, I’ve also read that planchet production was farmed out from the very beginning at the Philadelphia Mint. (And the first copper planchets were a disaster–poor quality metal that partly explains the condition of these coins today, as compared to contemporaries minted in the UK). The link below discusses a planchet annealing furnace at the SF mint. However, the situation might be totally different in the 19th C.

    http://www.coinnews.net/2013/04/03/u-s-mint-at-san-francisco-preparing-coin-blanks/


Viewing 8 posts - 1 through 8 (of 14 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.